Gay Marriage

[Ramona]

Yeah, I know this has the potential to piss a lot of people off. OH well, I can deal with it. Is anyone else of the opinion that Arnold Schwarzenegger is an idiot for vetoing the bill that would have permitted gay marriage?

[Sparks]

it's stupid to decide against anyone's sexuality. absolutely nonsensical.
Too many christian fundamentalists and not enough common sense is how I see it.

I don't care anymore about gay people than I do about normal people, it's not like a sort of... disease of dysfunction or something.

but this kind of thing is something that I just can't stand to look at.
Have these people in power ever heard of equality? seems to be lacking a bit.

haha...and they call this freedom.

[ScarletMornings]

if your religion doesn't agree with gay marriage, then I think it's wrong. I am a Christian, but I do not have anything against gay people. however, i don't believe they should be able to get married. it's a totally different relationship from a man and a woman, why don't they have their own ceremonies? i am against it. and don't people have the freedom to say they don't agree with it? if they voted arnold in there, then they should have known his opinions on stuff if they didn't agree with it and voted for someone else. it's democracy. it's the people's choice.

[Ramona]

The reason I think they should be able to get married is because I don't think that a gay relationship is any different than a straight one. Love is love. The only reason it would ever be different would be because society categorizes it as different, in an ideal world equality would be equality, and not the constrained pseudo-equality we're forced to fit into now. People do have the freedom to speak out against it, and they have been. Apparently, though, there weren't enough people who did. In my opinion, the only reason Arnold got voted in there was because people knew his name. Unfortunately, what people didn't know is that he's as meat-headed as he comes off.

[Sparks]

scarletmornings said:

if your religion doesn't agree with gay marriage, then I think it's wrong. ... i am against it. and don't people have the freedom to say they don't agree with it?

First of all, religion isn't an excuse for prejudice. I don't know a whole lot about what arnold's doing but I think it's a pretty large-scale issue.
I totally respect that people do believe things that I don't. Religion is one of those things.

You can definitely say you don't agree with gay marriage, but back up your claims. Love isn't different.

Are these people harming the community in any way? Are we going to die if there are a few lesbians living down the road? no.

people need to get down off their high horse and stop being so correct about every god damn thing.
You don't hear the pope making any move with the Catholic Church's fortune, to do much good in the world.
nah, we'll let the environment deteriorate... after all, when everything ends, we can just blame it on the second coming.

People need to start to worry about what they're doing to change things to make the real world a BETTER PLACE TO LIVE instead of pointing out the wrong in everyone else, or theorizing about a heaven that may not even exist. If you want to make a difference, then make it. God isn't going to stop you from going to heaven if a couple gays get married.

[ScarletMornings]

maybe that's what you believe. good for you. one of my really good friends is gay, and i totally respect that about him. i'm not on a high horse with people like that. i respect that they are different than me, but that's just it. they are different. you can't just pretend that a male-female relationship is the exact same as a male-male or female -female. it's not, and it doesn't have anything to do with love. love is not just love. there are so many different kinds of love. there's affection, there's abusive love, there's obsessive love. there's give up everything for that one persone love. everything in the entire world depends on how people percieve things. if people percieve things differently than you, you can't tell them they're wrong. you said religion isn't an excuse for prejudice, but maybe it isn't prejudice to people of that religion? in the bible, it says that you can be friends with gay people, but they cannot call themselves christians. that seems really extreme to me. i have no idea about people's spiritual life and i'm not going to judge a situation i know nothing about and have no right to. but i don't believe that god intended for people of the same sex to marry. you can't help how you feel, and you can't judge emotions right or wrong, but i don't belive in the sanctity of marriage, which has is deeply rooted in religion which says homosexuality is wrong, should be bestowed upon gay people. like i said, why don't they become permanent life partners? it's pretty much the same thing as marriage except without the ceremony that involves god. if you're not a christian, this probably means nothing as proof. but i don't feel i need to prove myself or my emotions (personally i think same sex stuff is gross, and i can't help that. why should i be blamed if i think it's gross if the people who do it aren't blamed for not thinking that?). i believe that god didn't intend for same sex marriage, and i will belive in that and in heaven. i don't theorize about heaven. how i feel about heaven has absolutely nothing to do with how i feel about gay marriage. it just seems wrong to me. it's my perception, and no matter what you say, if someone believe something, you won't change it, because life is just perception, in my opinion.
and i don't understand what the environment has to do with gay marriage. i never, ever said that i agree with what our president is doing. i think he's an idiot. i am not catholic, and i'm not ivolved with news of or anything to do with it or it's church. i totally agree that we are letting this earth go to hell. but that, to me, is not connected to gay marriage. they are totally different issues. what i feel and belive tells me that same sex marriage is wrong. if you don't, great. but don't tell me i need to back myself up with proof. my emotions aren't right or wrong. you can't help what you feel. if gay people can't help but feel it's okay, why can't i not help but feel it's not?

[Sparks]

I'm pretty sure I said at the very beginning of the post:
"I totally respect that people do believe things that I don't."

I don't think it's out of order for me to ask you to back up your claims.
And my comment about the Catholic Church was in context; as was my mentioning the environment. If you would read the beginning of that paragraph, I stated specifically: "People need to...stop being so correct about every god damn thing".
Basically the point was that so many people are worried about doing something that is in concurrence with their religions, etc. But there are so many - and it's plain ignorance to not accept that. My point was that it's more useful to concentrate on the here and now.
By doing that, we can bring back the idea that people are created equal, and stop this spewing of blind hatred.

I'm not asking you to feel anything other than what you feel. That's your business, not mine. I've obviously had different life experiences and for the most part relate to the subject differently.

What I am trying to say that I think should be an agreeable comment, is that people should have every right to do what they see fit.
Church and State need to stay separated. As soon as they tangle, so many people are shut out.
If two people decide that they are devout christians, and would like to get married - they can, right? Except, not if they're gay, right?
From what I understand of christianity, everybody sins.

What would you say about two really good people? They've gone and done their share of every single good deed God wants them to do. Except - they're also homosexuals.

I think there's definitely - and I stress this - a grey area. You can't just decide that it sickens you/ goes against your religion/ bothers you, and not try to see that these are people.

And no matter what any book says, I'm always going to base my judgement on what makes people happy with their lives. I don't think any kind of love is bad in this world. We need all of it we can get.
It's this separation that I don't like to look at. It may not be the same as a heterosexual relationship, but it isn't any reason to condemn people. It isn't any reason to deny people the things that will complete them.

I'm not attacking your faith. I respect your views like I do anyone else's - I just think making decisions for people other than oneself is out of line and destroys the illusion of freedom.

[behindTHEmask]

I am going to say - straight forth - that I agree with Sparks.

The way I see it, Christians think gay marraige is wrong because it wasn't what God intended. It's not right because He says so. But doesn't the Bible also say that we shouldn't judge anyone like that? Doesn't it tell us, somewhere in some form of words, that we should judge fairly on the people?

I'm no religious person, but I've had this discussion more than once.

Put yourself in their place - a "gay" place. I don't care if that is your orientation or not. If you were them, how would you like to be criticized and singled out due to who you are in love with? Is it not right to have the same sex marraiges because "that's not what God intended" or because it just upsets people because that's what they've been brought up thinking. But that's exactly it. The way people are brought up are affecting they way people see society. They don't see outside of how they were raised, and argue views because someone said one statement. That's what started people speaking out against/for gay marraiges. Someone wanted to bewed the one they love. Is that so wrong?

If it were me, I'd be appauled. But, I have no religious views influencing the way I see society. I refuse to determine a person's rights do to the statement "that wasn't how it was intended'.

Bullshit.

Like The Karate Sneeze said, "Love is love". No matter what your orientation, love is the unexplainable emotion that rushes over you when you find comfort and security in another individual. Whether it be a male or female, and whether you be straight or gay. Love is fucking love.

If society saw things the other way around, we'd be just as appauled. Just as mad. America was meant to free other countries from the teaching of the church, but now America just has more churches and more religions. Now, I'm not trying to single out religion. You're views on God are none of my business. I'm just saying, from debates I've had with people, having Gay Marraiges legalized is wrong because something in their religion said it wasn't right, and I don't think that's fair. I think it's hypocritical.

The Declaration of Independece states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Now, grant it we gave power to Arnold to control the choices, but people do not know how to stand up for what they believe in anymore. They think it will effect their stature. They don't want to be shunned because they've obtained a real thought. But Arnold isn't listening to the protestors who are for gay marraige. And when the people aren't happy, something should be done to fix that.

Gay marraiges should be legalized because the only reason it's not is due to the fact that people are prejudice and scared of what they don't understand.

[ScarletMornings]

how many flippin times did i say i have nothing against homosexual people? i don't shun them, i don't tell them they're evil, i don't deny them their place in heaven, i don't even flippin JUDGE THEM. and what the heck is this about a blind spewing of hatred? I DON'T HATE, DISLIKE, SHUN, JUDGE, CONDEMN OR any other flippin thing you wanna say i do to gay people. they're gay. good for freakin them. but i don't have to agree. i think that it is gross. why is their emotion okay, but mine is shot down? and why can't people admit that GAY PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT?? it doesn't mean they are evil or bad, and i DONT FLIPPIN FEAR THEM. but they are not the same as straight people. i just believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. will someone please answer me WHY they can't have their own ceremonies? but i don't even know why i get into discussions like this. if you believe that gay marriages are right, not one thing i say is gonna convince you otherwise, and i'm just gonna get mad when people tell me i'm wrong or i'm prejudiced or i'm a hypocrit for following my faith. i'm sorry you guys don't agree and can't respect that i believe my faith says gay marriage is unnatural. so i'm just gonna step out of this, since i won't be right no matter what i say, even if i don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, just opinion. i'll just have to say i disagree with gay marriage, i'm sorry you all don't agree with me, and at the risk of sounding completely stuck up, could we please watch the language around here? i don't like the f word especially, and i don't think it should have a place in discussions, but, hey!, you all might disagree.

[behindTHEmask]

You've got my part of the discussion all wrong. I was NOT, by ANY means meaning YOU in particular. I was just participating in a discussion - which you've seemed to turn it in to an arguement. I'm not trying to attack your views and I am sorry if I offended you. I'm sorry that I cussed. But calm yourself, this is just a DISCUSSION, not a full out arguement.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's part of political thinking, like democrats and repulicans - conservatives and liberals. It's part of society.

But, I must say, gay people aren't different. Gays are two people in a relationship. Being gender biased on the situation should not be involved in its definition. We, as society (I'm including EVERYONE, because this statement is GENERALIZED) have told them that it is different - told them they are different, and some times, they feel wrong for it. Sometimes, they end up as a headline because they've hung themselves in a tree. People kill themselves because society classifies them as different.

But who is society to post labels on them?

Everyone. Nobody's at fault anymore because we can't blame EVERYONE.

The situation at our hands isn't about Gay Marraige, it's about changing what society views as NORMAL.

[Ramona]

I see what you mean, ScarletMornings, about there being different kinds of love, but if there are different kinds of love in heterosexual relationships, then why can't there be in homosexual ones? Maybe you'd like to classify homo- and hetero- love as two idfferent types themselves, with all the added abusive/affectionate/die-for-you, etc. categories. Still, why deny them the right to marry?

Think of it this way in terms of religion: If you were an adamant Chrisitian and your husband-to-be didn't want to get married in the church, but instead participate in a court marriage, then wouldn't you want to have the ceremony that includes God?

Then why should it be different for gays? Say a man who has been a Christian ever since his childhood and has always been brought up in a Christian environment suddenly finds himself falling in love with the guy next door. What if their relationship grows and they want to get married one day? What if it were legal and they disagreed on whether or not they wanted to get married in the church? Why would it be any different than hetero- couples who disagree on the same thing?

Maybe there is a difference now, but it's only in the eyes of society. There wouldn't be a difference if we didn't categorize it as such.

[Sparks]

scarletmornings said:

how many flippin times did i say i have nothing against homosexual people? i don't shun them, i don't tell them they're evil, i don't deny them their place in heaven, i don't even flippin JUDGE THEM. and what the heck is this about a blind spewing of hatred? I DON'T HATE, DISLIKE, SHUN, JUDGE, CONDEMN OR any other flippin thing you wanna say i do to gay people. they're gay. good for freakin them. but i don't have to agree. i think that it is gross. why is their emotion okay, but mine is shot down? and why can't people admit that GAY PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT?? it doesn't mean they are evil or bad, and i DONT FLIPPIN FEAR THEM. but they are not the same as straight people. i just believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. will someone please answer me WHY they can't have their own ceremonies? but i don't even know why i get into discussions like this. if you believe that gay marriages are right, not one thing i say is gonna convince you otherwise, and i'm just gonna get mad when people tell me i'm wrong or i'm prejudiced or i'm a hypocrit for following my faith. i'm sorry you guys don't agree and can't respect that i believe my faith says gay marriage is unnatural. so i'm just gonna step out of this, since i won't be right no matter what i say, even if i don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, just opinion. i'll just have to say i disagree with gay marriage, i'm sorry you all don't agree with me, and at the risk of sounding completely stuck up, could we please watch the language around here? i don't like the f word especially, and i don't think it should have a place in discussions, but, hey!, you all might disagree.

you need to calm right down.

1. Take some time to actually read through what I said and you'll realize that the "spewing hatred" comment wasn't directed specifically at you.

2. Why should they have their own ceremonies? Marriage ceremonies are between two individuals and God. They aren't between society and these two people. It shouldn't matter to you at all what they do.
Have you ever heard the saying, "Only God can judge me?" It's a good one to live by.

3. Well then it's a good thing nobody's told you yet that you're prejudiced or a hypocrite.

Except, there's an easy argument that could be made, based on the things you have said.

If you don't want to accept that you opinion is clearly hypocritical, fine. You don't have to. I'm sure there are ethical reasons behind your line of thinking, but so far, what I've seen just shows me that your politics are paper-thin, and that if you scratch at the surface with your fingernail a bit, there's really nothing there.

I'm going to make some points though, to make it clear, because this is how debating goes.

A) You say that gay people are "different". Well, you can't be the judge of that, I hate to break it to you. Human beings are the same. Black, white, male, female. Nothing has changed.
B) God wants you to treat everyone equally and love and all that. (I know how the bible goes.) It's a contradiction in itself that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to live how they want.
C) Denying these people marriage equals restriction of freedom. It is not equality. It is, in essence, not a very Christian thing to do.

Now listen up: you were never attacked before, and this post wasn't an attack. I'm just clarifying the things you've obviously spun out of proportion, and I've laid my argument out flat.

You are allowed to feel however you want. No one ever said you couldn't.

I was hoping you'd be able to handle this discussion in a mature way instead of blowing up like that.
I'm making this clear, right now. This is a one-hundred percent fair discussion, and right now you look like you're frustrated because you can't find a real reason to back up your opinion.

If you just "feel it", fine, leave it at that. Nobody thinks any less of you, everyone sees the world differently.

And also, if you think we're shooting you down because of your faith, don't even start. my closest friends are Catholics, Lutherans, Hindu; I'm not close-minded.

Now. If you want to continue this debate in the way that debates should be made, you can go right ahead and present a point that is more than just "this is what the church tells me is right."

Thanks for reading this.

[ScarletMornings]

well, i thought you were the one who said i needed to back up what i said. if the fact that my emotion is enough, why would you ask me to do that? no never mind, i'm sorry you can't see things from my point and i'm sorry i can't things from your point. i guess i'm wrong if that's what you think. and just btw, i don't even really go to church, so i'm not just blindly following them, but what's wrong with following your faith? i guess it doesn't really matter if gay people get married, and i'm sure people who have obvious clear cut arguments besides their faith and their feelings will probably eventually make it legal and i'm not gonna freak out or anything. but it will just never seem right to me, and i'm sorry if that makes me prejudiced or a hypocrite or a flake. i hope this is a mature enough post in this discussion. but in my defense can i just say that people get emotional when they believe something, and i, unfortunately have a very short temper and little to no patience. i'm young. perhaps i'll get better. i'm not going to apologize for believing it's wrong, but i am apologizing for losing my temper, though, not to be snotty but i didn't cuss or anything like that, no offense. but i will try and ponder the reasons i think it's wrong and maybe i can rejoin this "discussion" when i've thought of an argument that will stand.

[Ramona]

I love you guys. I love how you're all opinionated and stick by your beliefs.

[kurai]

I have to agree with everyone else (well at least on most terms) about the gay marriages. It's completely their buisness, and their own love. People can't control their feelings no matter how hard they try. If someone was to ever bring the fact that they can't have children...which some people have...some couples that are considered straight can't have children either for some reason or other. So all facts considered, if they love each other, why shouldn't they be allowed to be married? It's like any other couple, they are simply the same gender. How is it in anyone's rights to tell us who to love, and what gender to prefer? It's just sad about all the fights the government has had. After all, it isn't really going to dirrectly effect them.